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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:43 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Never to late Mc Todd. Some very interesting facts there.
We shouldn't get all hung up on technical details with fiction though.
Remember that War of the Worlds is set slightly in the future, from when it is written that is. So the Thunder Child is a future ship, and is an idea not a fact.
The Thunder Child only exists in the story.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:10 pm 
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What I've always found odd about the Thunder Child, is that if that one ship alone managed to destroy a pair of tripods, wouldn't the Royal Navy have had more than enough ships to handle the invaders?

Britain has always been a Naval power, so why would only one warship be arround to protect them?

It's understandable that the Martians can alter their tactics, as they did with the black smoke, but what could they have done to outclass the advantage posessed by the Navy, before getting the flying machines opperational?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:12 pm 
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Maybe they would call for reïnforcements or keep firing the Heat-Ray, I don't know.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:10 pm 
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But the Martians don't seem to have any way to communicate with their homeland, so chance of support arriving from home is slim unless it was planned in advance and the Martians in the book were just a 'first wave'. Now that I think of it, that would be a good idea for a sequel...

Given the level of Militarism in Europe at the time, I'd say the combined powers of the Earth could take on a groups of 50 MFMs. (Wells says that 10 cylinders land, each with about 5 Machines.)

A continued Martian campaign would rely on massive reinforcements, establishing air power, and developing a local industrial base to produce supplies.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:35 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Well waht you are talking about is one of the points of the story. Britian is overstretched as a military power at the time of the novel. So the navy is all over the globe protecting it's colonies etc.

Plus the Martians learn by mistake. Once they are on to the war ships they would in future stay out of range of them and blast them from afar. Also once the flying machine is operational. It's game over for every navy on the planet.

The martians could have easily took out the warship before it got a bead on them. But they don't know what it is and pay the price. after that they don't repeat the same mistake twice.

The same thing happens early on with the hidden cannons. After that the Martians fire the black smoke into areas that could hide cannons, from out of range.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:53 pm 
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And their lack of knowledge about our weapons and tactics seems to defy the "Watched, scrutinized, and studied" bit. Unless they realy had no clue what to expect when they arrived at all, that Earth would even have civilized inhabitants. They weren't ready for Artilery, or even Boats! Boats!

What could they one Martian have been thinking as it stood there in its huge metal tripod. "Oh look, there's some sort of metalic contraption skimming across the water, whatever could it be? Hmm... Seems to have some rather large cannon like parts to it... produces a lot of smoke... What a curious device. Say, what's the bright-" *Explodes*

When you think about it, the Tripods have so much in common with a Steamship. They make alot of noise, produce huge clouds of smoke, made of bright shiny metal. You'd think that a species that achieved space travel using nothing but a very large cannon and a lot of math would be able to make a connection between the two without getting killed.

What I recall is that the Martians did figure out what it was, and started to attack, but missed the Thunder Child because it was moving so quickly.

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Also once the flying machine is operational. It's game over for every navy on the planet.

I mentioned that in one of my posts.

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Well waht you are talking about is one of the points of the story. Britian is overstretched as a military power at the time of the novel. So the navy is all over the globe protecting it's colonies etc.


But Britain was also tied up in a Naval arms race with Germany to see who could build the most battleships. I'd say they'd want to station a rather large force in the Channel, to keep an eye on their rising foe.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:59 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Hey your talking to the guy who created the Post Backward Interlects over in the Pendragon section of posts. It is an argument about how daft the Martians seem to be and that if Pendragon was going to be as faithful to the book as they were saying then the Martians had to be a little backward. Check it out it's quite a debate, the biggest of all the posts in the whole forum. I agree with you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:05 pm 
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In 1897, Britain hadn't yet started competing with Germany, as the Germans only started to build a proper ocean going fleet the following year. That's when the Brits started to worry. Until then, we were more worried about the French and the Russians.

However, as mentioned, the RN did have a fleet stationed close to home, the Channel Fleet (which Wells mentions). And unless the Martians are only going to stay near the coast or go paddling near the beach, a navy ain't much use against them.

As I recall, the Martians first fired a canister of Black Smoke at the Thunder Child, but as she was moving rapidly, she quickly left it behind.

And I don't know whether the Martians were backward, we don't know how closely they watched us, it simply isn't quantified in any way. I think they were overconfident. It would have been rather boring as a story if they'd been infallible.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:52 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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yeah the thing about the 53 movie is they don't take a hit. well only in the basement. there is no moment of hang on we might get a victory here.
this new one will probably be the same.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:24 pm 
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Nah, I've heard that a few tripods get blown up in the new one.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:21 pm 
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Yuri2356 wrote:
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Well waht you are talking about is one of the points of the story. Britian is overstretched as a military power at the time of the novel. So the navy is all over the globe protecting it's colonies etc.


But Britain was also tied up in a Naval arms race with Germany to see who could build the most battleships. I'd say they'd want to station a rather large force in the Channel, to keep an eye on their rising foe.


I think someone else has already pointed out that the naval arms race between Britain and German didn't really begin in earnest until after 1905 with the RN's launching of Dreadnought. In 1898, Germany had pretty much squat for warships. The French and Russians, on the other hand, were the boogeymen of choice until 1904 or 5.

But to another point, Wells' text describes the Thunder Child as being the only warship visible in the channel. He hints that there might be more over the horizon, but not much is made of this possiblity.

Yes, Wells may be a bit generalistic in calling all iron warships "ironclads" but even his selection of a "torpedo ram" is in itself interesting. It's not a big ship, nor a new ship (in 1898).

Perhaps I'm inferring too much between the lines, but I was hearing Wells hinting that the much-vaunted Royal Navy, the savior-protector of Britain, had been pretty much reduced to a lone, small, out-of-date warship. Symbolic of naval losses beyond the story's scope.

Thunder Child's crew acted bravely and gave the ultimate sacrifice, but when Thunder Child disappears, I picked up a sense of doom -- like that one ship was the RN's last shot, not that there were more and bigger ships coming, so you martians better watch out.

my two cents


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:55 pm 
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I think the Navy simply couldn't do much - how could they, except in the remote event that the Martians would be incautious enough to wade out to sea, as indeed the three in the 'Thunder Child' battle did?

The fleet does seem to be intact, there is nothing to imply that it has been attacked by the Martians. In the 'Thunder Child' chapter, we read this:

'About a couple of miles out lay an ironclad, very low in the water, almost, to my brother's perception, like a waterlogged ship. This was the ram Thunder Child. It was the only warship in sight, but far away to the right over the smooth surface of the sea--for that day there was a dead calm--lay a serpent of black smoke to mark the next ironclads of the Channel Fleet, which hovered in an extended line, steam up and ready for action, across the Thames estuary during the course of the Martian conquest, vigilant and yet powerless to prevent it.'

Wells makes it quite explicit that the fleet could do nothing, most likely for the reasons given above. After the 'Thunder Child' sinks:

'But the ironclads to seaward were now quite close and standing in towards shore past the steamboat.'

And finally:

'After a time, and before they reached the sinking cloud bank, the warships turned northward, and then abruptly went about and passed into the thickening haze of evening southward.'

Wells's portrayal of the Royal Navy as impotent would have been horrifying to Victorian readers. After all, the Navy was the pride of the Empire, England's sword and shield. The year 'The War of the Worlds' was published, 1897, was Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, an orgy of imperial self-congratulation, with the greatest fleet review the world had ever seen. These images of pomp and grandeur would have been in the minds of all of Wells' readers.

And by not having the Navy merely destroyed, but left intact and powerless, the horror must have been even greater. Because this was one of the clever things about the story - Wells had used the form of the future war novel, very popular at the time, but instead of the enemy being Prussians, Russians or French, any of whom would have had to fight and defeat the Royal Navy in order to invade, the Martians simply leapfrog England's shield. They don't even need to fight the Navy, they simply land directly in the heart of Empire; in a sense they are the ultimate paratroopers, vaulting over their victims' defences.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:00 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Yo, Lonesome, could you post an image of the Eve of the war Logo that you did sos thatb I can download it? Needs to be added to my colection of printouts. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:15 am 
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I have the background pics but the text was added by Lee. but sure you are welcome to what I've got.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:05 pm 
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Yes please. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:55 pm 
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Don't keep us waiting! :D \:D/


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:00 am 
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Yuri2356 wrote:
But the Martians don't seem to have any way to communicate with their homeland, so chance of support arriving from home is slim unless it was planned in advance and the Martians in the book were just a 'first wave'. Now that I think of it, that would be a good idea for a sequel...



Mind if i make a fan-fic of that? I will ecnolige you of corse (and spell check :lol: ."


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:39 am 
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Their could be no success to a second wave. They have lost the element of Surprise. They need time to get out of the Cylinders, and the army would blow it back to Mars. Also the Martians would still be killed by our germs.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:49 am 
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But what if the Martians actually find a way to resist that? :-s


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:20 pm 
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Yes, even if the Martians coulnd't communicate directly with their home. (Radio being a thing not well known until the 19th Century) Wells could still concieve of them knowing how to record sound via some sort of high-tech Martian wheeless phonogragh. In the last moments of the invasion, the dying Martians in London could have left a warning to any future visitors. One they know about the Bacteria, the Martians could use their immense scientific prowess and adaptability to overcome that problem.

(Also, there are signs at the end of the book that those still on Mars were able to see what happened to their attack force, which is why they then assaulted Venus.)

It's believable that the second wave would be more heavily equipped than the first, given that those planning the invasion would have expected the first wave to establish a beachhead in England that would then be reinforced with further supplies and personell. Possibly more powerfull fighting machines, and construction tools to allow for setting up a long-term base on Earth.
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Mind if i make a fan-fic of that? I will ecnolige you of corse

Go right ahead. You could have an ongoing battle starting up between the Martian Second wave, and the rest of the world's nations (United against this new threat) all in a WWI-esque setting. Humans would have advanced enough to put up more of a fight against the original book Martians, (Gas masks, howitzers, machine guns, land mines, rifle grenades, biplanes, ect. ect.) and we can see huge land/sea/air battles between the desperate humans and the entrenched Martian foes.

They'd need to land in a rather remote and isolated area to avoid being blown up before they're ready to move. I leave that up to you...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:57 pm 
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I'm looking forward to read the fanfic... :D =D>


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:27 pm 
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The Martians would not be able to vaccinate themselves against our bacteria. They have no samples, and no imune systems. They would have to genetically engineer themselves to resist our bugs and could only do that with samples. They could of course do what we do and wear space suits. But they want to feed on us and so we would contaminate them.

If they have planned their invasion for so long then why send a first wave that is weaker than a second?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm 
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The Martians would not be able to vaccinate themselves against our bacteria. They have no samples, and no imune systems. They would have to genetically engineer themselves to resist our bugs and could only do that with samples. They could of course do what we do and wear space suits. But they want to feed on us and so we would contaminate them.

Which is why I proposed that they would find old logs and recordings from the first Invasion, and be able to work out the problem before things start to go wrong.

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If they have planned their invasion for so long then why send a first wave that is weaker than a second?

Becaues you don't send your entire force at once when you invade. Your first move is always to send in a small group to perform reconissance and if possible establish the beginings of a base for the rest of the campaign.

Also, keep in mind the cost factor involved with sending these capsules. As I've said in the 'intellect' thread, the Martians are restricted by both material resources on their old and dying home, and by the brief time during which Earth is within effective firing range. (It might be possible for them to hit us when we're on opposite sides of the sun, but would the crew of the cylinder have enough supplies to make the longer trip?)

And don't forget that there's always the faint chance that Leroy will screw something up...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:57 pm 
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Yuri2356 wrote:
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The Martians would not be able to vaccinate themselves against our bacteria. They have no samples, and no imune systems. They would have to genetically engineer themselves to resist our bugs and could only do that with samples. They could of course do what we do and wear space suits. But they want to feed on us and so we would contaminate them.

Which is why I proposed that they would find old logs and recordings from the first Invasion, and be able to work out the problem before things start to go wrong.

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If they have planned their invasion for so long then why send a first wave that is weaker than a second?

Becaues you don't send your entire force at once when you invade. Your first move is always to send in a small group to perform reconissance and if possible establish the beginings of a base for the rest of the campaign.

Also, keep in mind the cost factor involved with sending these capsules. As I've said in the 'intellect' thread, the Martians are restricted by both material resources on their old and dying home, and by the brief time during which Earth is within effective firing range. (It might be possible for them to hit us when we're on opposite sides of the sun, but would the crew of the cylinder have enough supplies to make the longer trip?)

And don't forget that there's always the faint chance that Leroy will screw something up...


Even if they knew exactly what happened to their "first wave" they wouldn't be able to fix the problem. They have no imune system. The planet is poisonous to them. They cannot remove the poison or give themselves immune systems that fight bugs they have never studied.

As for, you always send in a smaller first wave in any invasion.

You don't if you have a technology millions of years in advancement. The title of War of the Worlds is deceptive. We are no contest. They dont have to play by our rules. If they hadn't of got ill and died. Their flying machines would have conquered the rest of the world in a fairly short wave with no second wave needed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:11 pm 
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Loz wrote:
Even if they knew exactly what happened to their "first wave" they wouldn't be able to fix the problem. They have no imune system. The planet is poisonous to them. They cannot remove the poison or give themselves immune systems that fight bugs they have never studied.

Which is why they could engineer a basic immune system while on Mars. (Create the Martian equivalent of a White blood cell) This 'generic' immune system would then do what it could to resist Earthly infections, just as our own systems do when attacked by a new disease, and would buy them enough time to acquire samples of the hostile bacteria and produce the needed antibodies.

And it's not like they're fighting every bug on the planet. Having a virus or bacteria jump from infecting one species to annother is a rare occurance, so once they've isolated the germs which are causing damage they can focus their efforts on destroying them.

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As for, you always send in a smaller first wave in any invasion.

You don't if you have a technology millions of years in advancement. The title of War of the Worlds is deceptive. We are no contest. They dont have to play by our rules. If they hadn't of got ill and died. Their flying machines would have conquered the rest of the world in a fairly short wave with no second wave needed.


So you expect only 50 Martians to not only smash all resistance on Earth, but then simultaniously occupy and control its entire surface indefinately? Even though the fighting Machines are poerful enough to take on anything Earth has to offer, and win, they don't have the numbers needed to keep track of the entire globe. The second they move out of one reigon, idealistic dreamers like out friend the Artilleryman would start rounding up survivors and creating new problems for the Martians.

Why should they even bother occupying us? Becasue straight genocide is out of the question. As you said alreay, we're a food source to them. They need to keep us alive and reproducing as part of their long-term plans for settling the Earth, plans which clearly require more than 50 Martians to accomplish in any reasonable timeframe. Wave two would be the force of long term occupation and colonization, which is exactly what they're trying to accomplish.


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