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 Post subject: The 'Eyes' Of The Fighting Machine Explained
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:17 am 
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Tripod King

Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:30 am
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THE EYES OF THE FIGHTING MACHINE


One of the most prominant features to the Michael Trim/Jeff Wayne Martian Fighting Machine are those two bulbous eyes. Many think that these are the eyes of the actual martian sitting inside the hood - infact there not, its a protective screen or windsheild, possibly its main use for keeping out ultraviolet light.

However, those bulbous eyes were not the original design to the machines. Below you will see one of the famous artwork booklet paintings that comes with the album.

One question that has been raised many times about this painting is that of the 'eye' being pecked out by the crow. You will notice that the eye is made of cells like that of a fly, but the Fighting Machine with its hood facing the you has no cells - its smooth. The original design of the shield or screen was to be of 'one' single screen and not of two eyes, the texture of the screen being like that of a fly's compound eye as seen on the right of the painting. The decision was made in the end to change the single screen to the two green bulbous eyes we are now so familiar with.

Here, artist and designer of the Fighting Machine - Michael Trim expalins a little further in a interview with me.

"The original design for the Fighting Machine featured a detailed eye at the front, base on the compound eye of a fly. Sadly, this was later changed to the twin green bug-eyes of the final cover. Thus it was that I not only had to alter my own front cover artwork, but also that of the other artists featured, with the exception of the close-up spread of 'Dead London' where the crows are seen pecking at the eye, which retained the original concept."

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DEAD LONDON By Geoff Taylor


H_C

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:35 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Lonesome Crow already cleared that up for us a while back, he even drew in the rest of the machine. He argued that because the other machines were further away the detail of the compound eye could not be seen. But the closer eyes obviously could. the dead london scene being the only one with the windows so close.
Now we know the truth for sure.
Lonesome you were sort of right.


Bah bah black sheap April diamond spheres, Rigsby, Rigsby, Eight sided Pears.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:42 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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See I told you so, they are not scales :D

So one eye not two, I would have liked to have seen that :a009:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:42 pm 
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Tripod King

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From what I gather, the bug eyes were not 'compound fly eye', only the single screen was like that, the screen you see the crow pecking away at. That screen was not altered by the artist, it remains the original single screen.


H_C

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:16 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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So what will the hood / eyes be like in the CGI film? compound or not compound? that is the question :D


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:53 am 
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Newbie

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Location: Scotland... Aye!
ta' be honest... I first heard the album as a small child and it scared the poop out of me... but heh, I was a kid, I LOVED having the poop scared out of me! :P
(nothing has changed BTW ;) ).
But I actually thought that the bulbous eyes were the martians eyes too and that the compound eye detail was only shown in the crow picture
because the fighting machine was so close that you could actually see the detail.

Was disappointed when the game illustrated the green area as a mere window with the (much smaller and I had imagined) martian pearing through! :P

*shoogles head and scampers off to get a life!* :-s


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:31 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Falath_Rusc wrote:
I actually thought that the bulbous eyes were the martians eyes too and that the compound eye detail was only shown in the crow picture
because the fighting machine was so close that you could actually see the detail.

That's just what I thought and there is a thread dedicated to that subject......Somewhere :-k

Falath_Rusc wrote:
shoogles

:shock: What a great word :D ......... 8-[ What does it mean? 8-[


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:17 am 
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Martian War Lord

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I still think that the bird sitting atop the eye would not be able to rip the martians flesh out through a hole in the top, because the martian inside would not be close enough to the window. The bird would have to go inside.


Bah bah black sheap April diamond spheres, Rigsby, Rigsby, Eight sided Pears.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:41 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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The Martian's probably fallen off his bar stool and has fallen against the windscreen. One too many Red Weed's on the rocks #-o


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:54 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Well he'd have had to have fallen upwards. :-k


Bah bah black sheap April diamond spheres, Rigsby, Rigsby, Eight sided Pears.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:34 am 
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Location: Scotland... Aye!
Lonesome Crow wrote:
Falath_Rusc wrote:
Shoogles

:shock: What a great word :D ......... 8-[ What does it mean? 8-[


Hee hee! :) Scottish word... shoogles = shakes vigorously


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:44 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Great word, I shall have to remember that one, my father moved to Scotland a few years back, I'll try and work it into a conversation :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:14 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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So H_C do you think this is what the original art work would have looked like? :-k


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:42 pm 
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Tripod King

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Blimey, nice work their - sorry - yes, thats how it would have started off life. The eye (as I have already mentioned) with the bird pecking at is (according to Mike Trim) untouched and original.


H_C

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:13 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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:-k I like it but I think it was a good decision to go with the two "eyes" but I wish they had kept the compound eye effect :a009:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:37 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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I don't like the compound eyes because, they just make me think of insects. And the eyes seem more alien than if they were compound.


Bah bah black sheap April diamond spheres, Rigsby, Rigsby, Eight sided Pears.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:48 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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I think I liked them because they reminded me of the prehistoric sea creature, the trilobite, they also had compound eyes, and looked very alien.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:40 am 
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Martian War Lord

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The trilobites didn't have compound eyes! Only insects have them. Usually of the fly order. Spiders don't even have them.


Bah bah black sheap April diamond spheres, Rigsby, Rigsby, Eight sided Pears.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:33 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Loz wrote:
The trilobites didn't have compound eyes! Only insects have them. Usually of the fly order. Spiders don't even have them.


[-X Have a little look here http://www.trilobites.info/eyes.htm and you can say sorry afterwards :D

And just in case for some reason you can't visit the site here is a little quote from it
Quote:
Trilobites developed one of the first advanced visual systems in the animal kingdom. The majority of trilobites bore a pair of compound eyes (made up of many lensed units).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:47 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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And I've just found this for you, it's a Deep Sea Amphipod, this is not an insect but it does have a pair of Compound Eyes 8)

Anyway as I was saying, I liked them because they reminded me of the prehistoric sea creature, the trilobite, they also had compound eyes, and looked very alien.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:10 am 
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Martian War Lord

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Loz wrote:
Spiders don't even have them.


This is true, and except for the Jumping Spider order, almost every spider is as good as blind, so they use their sense of touch to feel for vibrations (on the ground, in their webs). By the way, here's a pic of what I love to see in autumn with fog and all that...


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The Tempest is an advanced assault vehicle, which carries two heavy Heat-Rays and a Canister Launcher.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:23 am 
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Martian War Lord

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I'm never afraid to admit I'm wrong. And in the interest of knowledge learned here being correct I concede that you are right and I am wrong. Some Trilobites had compound eyes. So sorry about that pal. :(

I wondere if he'll be gratious about it? 8-[

Here's a bit of bumf on those eyes - :mrgreen:

Trilobites developed one of the first advanced visual systems in the animal kingdom. The majority of trilobites bore a pair of compound eyes (made up of many lensed units). They typically occupied the outer edges of the fixigena (free cheeks) on either side of the glabella, adjacent to the facial sutures. At least one suborder of trilobites, the Agnostina, are thought to be primarily eyeless. None have ever been found with eyes. In contrast, a few secondarily eyeless species (in which a clear evolutionary trend toward reduced eye size with eventual disappearence of eyes altogether) have developed within several groups, even those known for large, well-developed eyes (e.g., Phacopina).

The advantage of good eye design*
Compound eyes in living arthropods such as insects are very sensitive to motion, and it is likely that they were similarly important in predator detection in trilobites. It has also been suggested that stereoscopic vision was provided by closely spaced, but separate eyes. Vertebrate lenses (such as our own) can change shape (accomodate) to focus on objects at varying distances. Trilobite eyes, in contrast, had rigid, crystalline lenses, and therefore no accomodation. Instead, an internal doublet structure (two lens layers of different refractive indices acting in combination) corrected for focusing problems that result from rigid lenses. The shapes of some trilobite lenses, in fact, match those derived by optical scientists over 300 million years later to answer similar needs. Compare, for example, the optical designs of the 17th century physicists Descartes and Huygens shown below, with those of two trilobite species. The result is that, even without the benefit of accomodation, the rigid trilobite doublet lens had remarkable depth of field (that is, allowed for objects both near and far to remain in relatively good focus) and minimal spherical aberration (distortion of image).

Descartes' lens design for minimal aberration (above left) is found in the lens of the trilobite Crozonaspis (right)
Light ray paths (yellow) entering the lens from the left come into focus a short distance to the right of the lens (blue).
In the eye of Crozonaspis, an intralensar body (white) further corrects focus after passing through the outer lens layer (blue).

Huygens' lens design for minimal aberration (above left) is found in the lens of the trilobite Dalmanitina (right)
both images ©1999, 2000 by S. M. Gon III, modified from Clarkson and Levi-Setti 1975

* I use the term "design" as a lead-in to the parallels between the optic designs of humans and the remarkably evolved morphology of trilobites. Trilobites provide some superb examples of evolution in action (see "loss of eyes" below). Trilobites make it quite clear that evolution of eyes occurs, and that one does not need to evoke "intelligent design" by a creator to explain them. To do so detracts from the idea of an omniscient being. It would have God tinkering with many flawed and suboptimal "designs" and never developing a perfect one. Who would want to worship a god like that? I mention this because this page has been used (without my permission) by people espousing "intelligent design" to the public, and I want it to be clear that I do not share those opinions, nor need that flawed argument to underpin my faith. Evolution is a remarkable and well-documented process, and breakthroughs in our understanding of its intricacies occur every year. Evolution is not in conflict with religious belief. Ignorance and intolerance damage the benefits of faith.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Three types of trilobite eyes
There are three recognized kinds of trilobite eyes: holochroal, schizochroal, and abathochroal. The first two are the major types, with the great majority of trilobites bearing holochroal eyes, and the distinctive schizochroal eye a recognized innovation of the Phacopida. Holochroal eyes are characterized by close packing of biconvex lenses beneath a single corneal layer that covers all of the lenses. These lenses are generally hexagonal in outline and range in number from one to more than 15,000 per eye! Schizochroal eyes on the other hand are made up of a few to more than 700 relatively large, thick lenses, each covered by a separate cornea. Each lens is positioned in a conical or cylindrical mounting and is separated from its neighbors by sclera (cuticular exoskeleton material) that extends deeply, providing an anchor for the corneal membrane, which extends downward into the sclera, where it is called intrascleral membrane.The abathochroal eye is seen in only a few Cambrian trilobites and is somehat similar to the schizochroal eye, but differs in some important respects: the sclera is not thick, and the corneal membrane does not extend downward, but ends at the edge of the lens. The table below illustrates and contrasts the characters of the three eye types.

Holochroal eye
from Clarkson 1975 Schizochroal eye
from Levi-Setti 1993 Abathochroal eye
from Zhang & Clarkson 1990
found in nearly all Orders
few to very many lenses (to >15,000!)
lenses typically small, numerous
one corneal layer covers all lenses
lenses in direct contact with others
no sclera between lenses
corneal membrane covers surface only found in some Phacopida only
typically fewer lenses (to ca 700)
lenses much larger, fewer
each lens bears an individual cornea
lenses separated from each other
sclera between lenses very deep
corneal membrane extends into sclera found in Cambrian Eodiscina only
few lenses (to ca 70)
lens size small, not numerous
each lens bears an individual cornea
lenses separated from each other
interlensar sclera not deeper than lenses
corneal membrane ends at lens margin

cross section reveals:
no sclera between lenses (blue)
single cornea (pink) covers all lenses
corneal membrane on surface only

cross section reveals:
sclera (brown) between lenses very deep
one cornea (pink) per lens (blue)
corneal membrane extends into sclera
cross section reveals:
sclera (brown) not deeper than lenses
one cornea (pink) per lens (blue)
corneal membrane ends at lens edge

Platyantyx
had holochroal eyes

Reedops
had schizochroal eyes

Pagetia
had abathochroal eyes



How did schizochroal eyes evolve?
All early trilobites (Cambrian), had holochroal eyes and it would seem hard to evolve the distinctive phacopid schizochroal eye from this form. The answer is thought to lie in ontogenetic (developmental) processes on an evolutionary time scale. Paedomorphosis is the retention of ancestral juvenile characteristics into adulthood in the descendent. Paedomorphosis can occur three ways: Progenesis (early sexual maturation in an otherwise juvenile body), Neoteny (reduced rate of morphological development), and Post-displacement (delayed growth of certain structures relative to others). The development of schizochroal eyes in phacopid trilobites is a good example of post-displacement paedomorphosis. The eyes of immature holochroal Cambrian trilobites were basically miniature schizochroal eyes. In Phacopida, these were retained, via delayed growth of these immature structures (post-displacement), into the adult form.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Variation in trilobite eyes
As with other aspects of the trilobite body, there was a huge variation of size and form among trilobite eyes, which in many cases seems related to the ecological life style of different species. The figures below show some of these variations. Many of the earliest trilobite eyes were cresentic, such as those of the Corynexochid Polypleuraspis. A conical section of schizochroal eyes gave species such as Phacops an excellent field of vision. In some trilobites, such as the free-swimming pelagic trilobite Opipeuter, the eyes were so large that they dominated the cephalon, providing a 360 degree visual field. Specialized forms, such as Agnostus, seem to have been entirely blind. Others, such as the Trinucleoid Cryptolithus were bottom feeders with a large, pitted sensory fringe, and eyes were reduced or lost. In species moving through a benthic layer of loose debris or algal growth, eyes raised above the body on stalks could peer about for danger, such as in the strange Russian Asaphoid Neoasaphus (left). Species living on the bottom in deeper waters would have little or no need for eyes at all, and species with reduced eyes, such as Trimerus and secondarily lost eyes, such as Conocoryphe are the result.

Polypleuraspis
cresentic eyes

Phacops
schizochroal eyes

Opipeuterella
large holochroal eyes

Agnostus
primarily eyeless


Cryptolithus
secondarily eyeless

Neoasaphus
stalked eyes

Trimerus
reduced eyes

Conocryphe
secondarily eyeless




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evolutionary Loss of Eyes
Although eyes are normally an extremely important survival feature, there are situations under which loss of eyes might occur. For example, trilobites that took advantage of deep-water benthic (bottom-feeding) habitats where light was dim or lacking might have gradually lost their eyes without suffering an adaptive disadvantage. Such eyeless trilobite assemblages are called atheloptic. Such evolutionary trends are repeatedly seen in a variety of trilobite orders, and two examples are shown below. In both cases, these are Devonian trilobites that started with ancestors bearing large, functional eyes. In one sequence, eyes of a Phacopid clade were lost, and facial sutures associated with eyes were also reduced and marginalized. In the other example, involving a Proetid clade, eyes were also reduced and lost, but the basic facial suture pattern was retained. In the figures below (after Fortey & Owens 1999), the eyes are shown in blue and facial sutures in red.
The image to the left is a remarkable multiple of Conocoryphe sulzeri, a secondarily eyeless ptychopariid from the Czech Republic.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The ancestral Phacops species had large eyes and typical phacopid proparian facial sutures
The proetid Pterocoryphe had large eyes associated with opisthoparian sutures.
Eyes large and typical


Reduction of eyes and a migration forward on the cephalon is seen in the descendant Cryphops.
Greatly reduced eye size marked the genus Pteroparia, descendant of Pterocoryphe.
Eyes reduced in size


Eventually the eyes were lost althogether and the sutures were left along the anterior margin of the cephalon in the genus Trimerocephalus.
Although the eyes are entirely lost in this Pteroparia species, the facial suture patterns are largely unchanged.
Eyes lost entirely



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Devonian trilobite with an eyeshade
In September 2003 Fortey and Chatterton reported on a remarkable trilobite: Erbenochile erbeni, a Moroccan acastoid with an extremely well-developed schizochroal eye borne on tall, columnar palpebral lobes, rimmed with an eyeshade. This is another recent documentation of a remarkable development of the optical organs in trilobites.


Bah bah black sheap April diamond spheres, Rigsby, Rigsby, Eight sided Pears.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:30 am 
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Martian War Lord

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Location: Ridderkerk, the Netherlands
:a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103: :a103:
Knowledge updated!!! :D =D>


The Tempest is an advanced assault vehicle, which carries two heavy Heat-Rays and a Canister Launcher.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:21 pm 
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Martian War Lord

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Loz wrote:
I wondere if he'll be gratious about it?


Of couse I'll be gracious (note selling) about it.

\:D/ I told you so \:D/ I told you so \:D/ I told you so \:D/

Wow Loz you must have copied & pasted your fingers to the bone :lol:

Great picture Oever =D>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:26 am 
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Martian War Lord

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I have done a little work on 'The Red Weed' picture. I think it looks better, a little creepier, as if those tendrils could grab you. :a103:


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